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Re: New Bali bombing today
Sun, October 2, 2005 - 1:00 AMjust wanted to say hello and let you all know that i'm fine and safe. the bombings last night were in 2 very highly touristy areas that i visited once and wasn't planning on ever really returning. the mood is somber and very peaceful, here in ubud.
i feel very safe with these people and wouldn't hesitate returning or urging you all to come visit., when you get a chance, this place is very lovely.
as for one of the areas that got bombed last night, well visualize spring break madness, drunken tourists, rampant prostitution, happy hour that starts at 8am and hundreds of hawkers offering, fake rolex's and young girls to every one passing by every 30 seconds, oh yeah, and the mcdonalds' here deliver... while i do not condone violence, i do understand why it would enrage fundamental extremists... bali is under siege from the worst the west has to offer and my heart goes out to the misguided people of bali as much as to the victims of terrorism.
the other bombing site is an upscale restaurant area for decent seafood and ok prices.
it's clear that the terrorists wish to scare away the the younger and older tourists. -
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Re: New Bali bombing today
Sun, October 2, 2005 - 10:06 AMI am glad you are alright;
Although maybe you’re not all right.
This seems like the first time out of your mental safety bubble. The myopic, crass value judgement you just made about the areas bombed seems like a slightly veiled justification for one of these sights being chosen for murder.
My first visit to Bali 26 years ago, I remember the area of Kuta as tiny in comparison to it's current tourist sprawl, I also remember that there were at that time areas servicing the few hedonistic tourists and locals. By my parents accounts there were drunk locals, hawkers and prostitutes back in the 70's before the tourists.
If you look at the world there are places like this in every country albeit some not so visible but others much more so, Western tourism or none. This includes almost every Muslim country on the planet. I don't know if you have ever been to Jakarta but sections of the capital were openly decadent on my last trip, in my opinion more so than Kuta, although minus the visible western tourists.
Don't fool yourself about the visibility of western decadence as a cause; it’s a high profile target. This is a class struggle born of US foreign policy, inequitable trade structures and sponsorship of dictatorial regimes in order to manipulate resources. Religion is a recruiting mechanism and unifying constant. Israel is a buffer and a thorn.
I do not choose the area of Kuta as a place I go now, however as a young teenager I did get drunk there on occasion and ‘blow me up with home-made explosive’; I had a good time. If we look at ourselves honestly we can say that many of us have been that person at one time or another …and we had a good time. Is it ‘understandable’ when we get blown up?
"misguided people of Bali”… misguided people of Burning Man?
If you want to pick a site of the worst (and best) that Western values has to offer take a good look at yourself (and me) and what you do before judging the actions or environment of others. Burning Man as much as we love it is the most hedonistic, bacchanalian, ejaculation of wanton waste on the planet for forward thinking people. This type of rapacious consumption of resources cannot exist even in other 1st world countries. It is the price that is levied for turning people on (or off) to other ways of thinking and I am sure that many could give veiled justifications why a terrorist attack in this location would be ‘understandable’. Would you understand?
Hedonism exists because we are human, people have different ways of indulging this, even ascetics crave gratification through denial, other cultures through prayer, dancing, psychoactive experiences, tantra, mantra or beer. Who are we to judge?
If you really want to guide the misguided people of Bali, sell your motorbike, cash in your travellers checks, cut back on the soy latte’s on the terrace in Ubud and give all your cash to the hawkers and prostitutes of Kuta and the restaurant workers in Jimbaran; they are going to find it hard to feed their families over the next few months. I think your heart may go out to them.
I doesn't matter if you hate me, I doesn't matter if you believe me, but it does matter if you think.
Stuart -
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Re: New Bali bombing today
Wed, October 12, 2005 - 7:06 AMhmmm, well maybe you're right , maybe you're wrong...you're definately very reactionary in your response and your judgements... and this taints your thoughts and words....
what i do know is that i am in indonesea here and now and i have no idea where you are but it seems that you are not ;)
i give my impressions based on a life time of travel and having lived in a war torn and terrorism ridden country for 6 years (peru 86-91)
i don't hate anyone and do not condone violence, though i have seen my large than average for a westerner's share. i say it like i see it, and you interpret it through your filters.
i make no judgments on anyone, though i do reserve the right to judge behaviours, by my standards anytime i wish.
maybe i am being short sighted, i will take everything you say into consideration and ask many questions when i am in kuta next week.
maybe you are short sighted and are not seeing what i am experiencing - actually it's an impossibility for you to fully understand what i am experiencing, as you are not me and not here and now...
"This is a class struggle born of US foreign policy, inequitable trade structures and sponsorship of dictatorial regimes in order to manipulate resources. Religion is a recruiting mechanism and unifying constant. Israel is a buffer and a thorn. "
absolutely and tourism is the easiest target after all we're all embassaders to our societies - that's a no brainer for me so i forget to elaborate, thanks for filling in the blank ;)
"Burning Man as much as we love it is the most hedonistic, bacchanalian, ejaculation of wanton waste on the planet for forward thinking people. This type of rapacious consumption of resources cannot exist even in other 1st world countries. It is the price that is levied for turning people on (or off) to other ways of thinking and I am sure that many could give veiled justifications why a terrorist attack in this location would be ‘understandable’. Would you understand?"
i agree completely and i would understand. the us and europe have been raping the world of it's natural resources and producing a very large percentage of the waste and then forcing it on the rest of the world. i do not support all the burning, personaqlly don't even burn a candle at burning man - sometimes a little grass but i do this at home too :)
"misguided people..."
everybody's misguided brother! that's why the world is the way it is - we're all test pilots. there's no failure, just feedback and the people of bali are clearly not communicating well with whoever is bombing them, just as the us has not been listening to the rest of the world, for a very long time.
for the record 9/11 didn't surprise me either and it didn't surprize the cambodians i was with at the time in siem reap, cambodia; a country with children that regularly loose their limbs when they step on land mines left by the us military during the vietnam fiasco.
it did surprize the people of northern india and nepal when we started saturation bombing afganistan.
oh and the people of nepal are not surprized that the chinese have been terrorizingf the tibetans. they say the tibetans deserve the treatment in karmic retribution for the way tibetans have treated the neaplese.
nothing violent or negative surprizes me anymore, it just saddens me that a human is the worst threat or danger another human can have.
how is this wrong of me?
where is my flaw that you see so clearly?
you need to ackowledge the problem and be open to all the possibilities before you can do something about it.
i just gave my impression in the moment....
peace
rafael0 -
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Re: New Bali bombing today
Wed, October 12, 2005 - 12:44 PMRafaelo
I am glad I helped you think.
I hope that you are evaluating your own judgments, as I will now evaluate mine.
Could you have a quick look at your definition of reactionary for me and tell me whether you mean I reacted to your own particular bias with my own, or whether you mean I am opposed to your ‘liberal’ ideas? If the former I agree, if it’s the later I think the ideas you expressed previously were very conservative, subjective alternative dogma, indicative of those of us born into a privileged life. (Including me) (not criticism but question)
I would have preferred a word like contrary or differing.
I once thought the same as your previous post implied. I was frustrated at what I saw as the erosion of cultures. I also thought supporting the collective consciousness and building intention and universal vibration was enough. I judged the people in places I traveled as not being as ‘enlightened’ as myself for choosing a path I was rejecting. (I know it’s awful) Then I had a look at myself and realized I was a rich (by world standards) neo-hippy kid, traveling all over the world, having a party, meditating, being ‘spiritual’, doing yoga, and dressing up, having a great time on drugs and thinking I was really doing something and everyone else that wasn’t doing what I was doing wasn’t awake. (Not saying you, this was my experience) (also not saying I have given all of this up, I just don’t fool myself about what it accomplishes)
Then I woke up.
Sometimes not respecting the luxury of choice and freedom is a yoke that binds us and mask that blinds us.
I know I am guilty of having a very specific worldview. This comes from my job covering worn torn areas and impoverished countries for National Geographic and more recently ABC. This forced me to accept that I personally have no right to judge people for adopting any system including and especially the ones I reject, having been born into a life of comparative luxury and freedom myself. The solution? To paraphrase a philosopher I just met “the world is the way it is - we're all test pilots; there’s no failure, just feedback”.
You wrote: “I make no judgments on anyone, though I do reserve the right to judge behaviours, by my standards anytime I wish.”
You are definitely (and defiantly) correct saying that you have the right to judge behaviors (especially your own) - if it’s tempered with empathy rather than sympathy. To state that a culture is misguided for a choice that is out of our cultural experience becomes an elitist value judgment, open to rebuttal. I can hate what cultures do and fight against what I believe to be injustice when a culture attacks, manipulates or represses but if a culture chooses, modifies or modernizes a political/economic/social model; I know I need to clean my own house before I criticize theirs.
Which missionary has the righteous message? All, some, none? Or is their dogma just another control method limiting self-determinism. Do the Balinese deserve the right to make their own choices or should we step in with our 'superior' knowledge?
There is one thing I always told my film crews when we were working with remote tribes for Nat Geo, Never judge these people by your own standards, understand them through their situation and environment. These people mostly isolated from modern thought, many of whom had never seen white skin, had social systems built out of environmental necessity; by modern definition they would be savage and brutal. By their definition it was a successful system that had evolved and adapted to the prevailing environment.
You are also right in saying I am not there in Bali with you now, I left the day before Burning Man, I had dinner at Jimbaran Bay with my friends and their children of 3 and 11yrs, the staff of Nyoman’s have known them since birth. I still don’t know if any of them were amongst those killed. I don’t know what you are feeling and I don’t know what the Balinese are really feeling, I can only go from my own experience of previous terrorist attacks, war and famine to empathize - 'through my own filters'.
To quote the same philosopher “you need to acknowledge the problem and be open to all the possibilities before you can do something about it”.
Let’s agree that there is a problem, it has no easy answers and especially no easy judgments.
And it’s important we (really) think about it.
Stu
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Unsu...
Re: New Bali bombing today
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 2:15 AMI Love Bali Don't Let a few spoil it for all.
love And light
Simon
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Re: New Bali bombing today
Sat, May 6, 2006 - 7:49 AMI'm not trying to be disagreeable or rude... I do detest at times how western consumerism can destroy traditional culture values, but many people here, who by the way, are sort of literally 'stuck on the island' because it's too expensive for them to travel make good money in the tourist industry. I spoke with a Starbucks worker who told me should couldn't find a job anywhere else so she drove 30 minutes all the way from Denpasar to come to Kuta for work where she is probably paid better than the small shopkeepers that sell items just as mass-produced and commodified as the AUSTRALIAN inspired surf shops on Kuta-Legion road and she receives healthcare in a place where families sometimes have to save money for years after a loved ones death to perform the proper buurial ceremony... I'm not saying it's great... I'm just saying there has to be a balance between business and community and tourist areas can provide more opportunities for people who would like to do more than work in the rice paddies... as ugly as it may seem. And still, here in Kuta, there remains amazing family alliances where local workers return to villages for major events and the young kids working late night at Circle K were more than happy to tell me about their love for their ceremonial beliefs... it's not pretty, but it's reality and you can't just blame big business, you have to alter the way business works by not letting it change you. It's a personal attitude that is completely different in so many parts of the world... somehow Americans seem to panic when things don't go perfectly at work and that's what we bring when we do business elsewhere... Kuta, the most touristy place on the island, is still the most peaceful place I have ever been. -
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Reply : New Bali bombing today
Sun, May 7, 2006 - 5:16 PMgroups.myspace.com/bali
"Balinese send a beautiful message to the world" ..............read what I found
By the way : There is a wonderful Book called Bali Blues talking about the time after the Bombings and how balinese people cope with it
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